This week on Common Shapes podcast, I’m joined by my internet friend Anna Fusco to discuss dedicating your life to art.
Anna is an artist, writer, deep thinker, question asker and truth teller. Her practice consists of writing her Substack newsletter and making drawings.
Together we talk about our daily list practice, creating a gallery show, the challenges of pricing your work, and what it means to be a full-time artist.
Tune in to learn about—
The List aka Project Miracle
Making art & having art shows
Pricing your work
Newsletters & Substack
How to get started as a self-employed artist
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“The list has taught me that being an artist — and probably doing anything in life — is cyclical and not linear. There’s no upward trajectory. There’s just being on a roller coaster that’s up and down and straight and around and upside-down. And that in and of itself is the act of being an artist. It’s being a willing participant on that ride.”
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[0:00] Hello and welcome to Common Shapes. On today's episode, I interview the artist and writer, Anna Fusco, and we talk about The List, which is a practice we've been doing together.
[0:19] For the last few months, lovingly called Project Miracle. We talk about The Newsletter, We talk about substack, we talk about making art, we talk about having art shows, we talk about the vulnerability of writing.
And if you are thinking about making the leap into full-time art making as a job, or are just wanting to dedicate more of your time to creation this episode is for you. If you need more support in organizing your projects and your dreams make sure to download the creative ideation portal which is a three-day guide for visioning your projects and bringing them to life. You can find that at marleygrace.space slash common shapes.
It's totally free and includes a database to organize your projects in Notion. So, jump on in with me and Anna. It's a wild ride to roller coaster tornado people just trying to figure out how to live this life as writers and artists and I think that it will be of great benefit to those who listen. So, So enjoy my conversation with Anna Fusco.
[1:48] Okay, welcome, welcome, welcome to Common Shapes. Hi, thanks for having me.
I'm so happy you're here. Anna, so we are what people might call internet friends.
We are. But we are so much, damn it, It's gonna be so hard not to talk about the list.
I think we have to talk about the list because it's a spiritual practice.
Okay, so do you wanna tell the people about the list? I'll tell people about the list. Okay. Thank you.
There's a book called Project Miracle written by Melody Beattie. She is known for writing bestseller Codependent No More, which I have avoided reading.
Oh, it's one of my favorite books. This I know from your reading lists that you've shared. I personally am not ready to look at that part of myself anymore than I already have, but you mentioned Project Miracle, I think.
[2:56] In a newsletter. Yes. And I thought, all right, what's this about? I listened to it in one and a half days and the directive is to cultivate a gratitude practice for 40 days, but instead of just focusing on what you are genuinely grateful for like I have all of my senses and limbs. I have a roof over my head. I have food in my fridge. These are things that regularly appear on my list. One is advised to also write down the things that are currently plaguing them or you know rattling them or disgusting them. It's, like the shadow side of a gratitude list. An example for me would be today I am, grateful that my mother has dementia and the burden is falling on me.
[4:14] This is not something I'm actually grateful for right now, though I can see a tiny drop in the future where I might be.
And to me, what's so beautiful is I think a lot about, so today is Anna and I's first time, we're looking at each other right now and we've never looked at And we've been doing the list since, I want to say March.
[4:47] 13th or something, early March, we're recording this on June 11th, and we've both missed a couple days, but for the most part, we do it every single day.
And what I want to share about the experience is really for us that we were mutual followers of each other on the internet. And I was about to take a month off of Instagram and the one, I almost feel emotional sharing this, the literal one person I was like, oh, I would be sad to not get to DM them anymore was Anna. And so I emailed you and asked for your phone number. And this is such a good lesson because so many of my students, readers, audience, community always asks me like, how do I find adult friendships? And I'm like, you just have to ask for their phone number, I think.
So I asked for your phone number and you texted me your list without saying who you were.
[5:56] No context. And maybe you were like, it's Anna. And it was so personal that I was like, it couldn't possibly be Anna Fusco, Lord Cowboy, the stranger. I don't really know.
And it was. It was.
And I remember being like sort of taken aback and then just being like, okay, I think this This is who I do my list with.
[6:22] Not only has the list provided me so many miracles.
[6:29] But I think the biggest surprise was like how similar our brains work around stuff with our relationship with our moms, our creative practice in our relationships, friendships, romantic partnerships, and just how similar we are.
I mean, that maybe was the most beautiful miracle of the whole thing was just the constant state of like, oh, I'm not alone in my feelings.
So one thing I left out about the list is that Melody, after setting up the sort of the structure, which is starting your day every day, writing down 10 things, you can choose to have an accountability partner, a list buddy.
But she says, you know, this person has to read Project Miracle and agree to the sort of tenets of this project.
And you also have to get consent from them to make them your accountability partner, which I didn't do.
I full throttle just said. You took a risk.
I said, well, I wanna do this. and Marley is the only person I know who has read this.
So I'm just gonna throw it out there.
[7:55] And it's like throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.
And as soon as I sent it, I felt, oh my God, I just kind of dumped my list on this person, and I'm a stranger and this is not okay.
[8:09] It was beautiful. I will also just pause to say the title of the book is something different.
The title of the book I want to say is like 40 Days to Miracles or something.
Don't you, listeners, worry.
[8:29] Well, I think let's let the list integrate its way into our conversation as it does.
But I think my first question, which almost seems like, you know, the list has for both of us has both been very much about our work and nothing about our work in the same moment. But I, I do I do want to know, my first question is like, how has doing the list impacted your art practice?
And tell us, just give us a little, now that we've talked about the list, who are you, Anna, and what is your art practice? I'd love to know how the list has impacted it and just a little bit about where you're at right now.
Well, I'll start with the introduction, which is, my name is Anna, Anna Fusco.
I consider myself an artist and a writer.
[9:28] Deep thinker, question asker, truth teller.
I try, my truth, right? My practice consists of a newsletter on Substack, which I write three times a month, and making drawings, some of which are original drawings that I make for myself or for buyers or for galleries, if I'm lucky enough to have a show.
And then lots of sort of digital illustration, text-based work that turn into prints, that I sell from my online shop.
Those are the two ways I make a living and show up for my work every day.
And the list has taught me.
[10:20] Again, that being an artist and probably doing anything in life is just so cyclical and so not linear. There is no upward trajectory. There is just being on a roller coaster that's up and down and straight and around and upside down. And that in and of itself is for me, the act of being an artist. It's like being willing participant on that ride. And instead of fighting it the whole time.
[10:57] Being like, ah yes, here we are for the 304th time at the part where it goes upside down. Yeah. Because being able to, so now we've, you know, this list project says try it for 40 days and see what happens. And when you and I reached the 40-day mark, we both agreed, let's do this forever. And so like, are we cool text messaging each other for the rest of our lives, our lists? Yes, please. And so now it's been months and I have accumulated three tiny books of lists. And reading them chronologically, both to end or end to beginning has been incredible, truly incredible because never before have I made a succinct daily bullet point list of just my most raw, on like just the meat of who I am in that moment.
I mean, these are books that when I cannot find them.
[12:14] I have panic attacks that someone else will. These are books that nobody, I want nobody to see, nobody. My life would change if people saw these books and in ways that I'm not ready for, right?
[12:32] So it's so honest since I'm really able to have a quick five-minute reflection period of, Oh wow, two weeks ago I had this exact same thought and right now I'm having it again and then the next day I'm on the complete 180 side of that thought.
You know my morning pages have always served sort of a similar function in terms of like if I write something down enough days in a row I'll want to change it or I'll need to change it because I just can't believe how much I've been talking about it and I think that's where.
[13:12] Specifically I just experienced with my relationship to Instagram just like writing every day like how bad I was feeling about myself being on it. It's like I'm admitting it three times, I'm admitting it to myself, to another person, and to God when I write the list. And so it's like, Like, I just can't ignore it, and so that was part of what, to me, a big miracle was, handing over my password to be like, I can't, I can't look here anymore.
And that was a list, a list miracle.
A list miracle, yeah.
It's all obvious, I guess. The concept is obvious, like, emotions come and go like clouds.
Hang on to them because you never know, the next day it'll be fine, or you'll feel differently. impermanent.
I know this, but I have a tendency to get really myopic if I'm stressed or hormonal or overwhelmed, and I can lose sight of the impermanence of my feelings.
And so this list has been the most impactful thing.
[14:31] For me to actually recognize. It's like my proof. I'm holding these tiny little books of proof.
Wow, I'm up and down. And then being able to witness yours, oh, they're up and down too.
And I don't think that you and I are just uniquely up and down.
I think what it's showing me is, ah, yes, we are all up and down. Life is up and down.
[14:57] Okay, so I can stop fixating so much on striving towards balance or being incredibly hard on myself to be on the up and up all the time, whether it's emotionally or with my practice.
Yeah, I definitely agree that reporting back and forth to someone else, because, yeah, like you said, both of our lists are always really have this nice mixture of filled with those really epic things we're grateful for.
Living by the water, the people we love, these really special things.
And then like the hardest, worst shit possible is next to them.
And I think that's where it has pulled a new honesty out of me that my morning pages don't always get to capture.
Well, I also do morning pages. And I think that the idea of writing three pages is important in its own right. But getting that honest about something three pages worth might be intimidating or honestly impossible at that time, or just uninteresting. Like I maybe don't want to write three pages about, this incredibly raw, fleeting, emotional thought I'm having, but it's important for me to list.
[16:24] It, to name it today. Yeah, I think the list helps me. It's like It's really like fact check.
I definitely miss the list way less than I miss morning pages.
I mean, I basically almost never miss the list and definitely miss my morning pages sometimes.
So.
[16:49] One thing I got to watch you do, and this was so cool. You know, something I talk about on this podcast a lot is like, I love getting to visit artists in their studio and getting to watch the list.
Kind of felt like I got to go to your studio while you were working on your most recent solo show in an art gallery.
And so I'd love to hear, I believe it was your third solo show. Yes.
And I'd love to hear just like everything about the process, especially for other artists listening who maybe want to have their own art show.
Like yours really had a theme and a name. And so like, how do you pick the vision?
And you're someone who just makes so much work that like, how did you narrow it down and pick the pieces?
How did you even get an art show? Like, tell us a little bit about what's the process of getting an art show, having one, et cetera?
Those are great questions because I think, I really love the way that I got this art show, which is I moved from six months being in Mexico.
[18:00] To the central coast of California, not knowing anybody.
And my friend in LA sent me an Instagram profile profile of a new very small gallery in Cambria, which is a town that's about 30 minutes away from where I live.
And she just said something like, this guy seems cool. Doing cool stuff in an area that we have a lot of gift shops with t-shirts that say Highway 1, beach with an arrow, bad coffee shops, things like that.
[18:37] So I checked it out, and really, I just resonated with the vibe.
Charles owns the gallery, and he is extremely eloquent and kind of flirty and flowery with his language in a way that really spoke to me. So I just cold emailed him right when I moved there and said, hi, hello, I'm Anna Fusco and I make drawings. Here are some of the drawings I've made in the last year. This was my last show.
I would love to have a show with you if you're looking for artists. Bye-bye. And I felt, I mean, it never feels incredible sending those emails because the chance of rejection is there. But, I also felt pretty good because by this point, I had already developed a following and, you know, I had a little clout that I haven't had before, and so that felt like a cushion.
It sounds silly, but I want to name that, which is that it has helped my confidence and reaching out to people, to have an audience of people who support what I do.
[19:58] So I didn't hear back from him for like a really long time. And I kind of forgot about it.
And then occasionally, it was like, oh, I guess he wasn't into it.
And I'm not going to follow up or anything.
And then sometime in the fall, I got an email. And he was like, I can't believe I didn't see this.
I would love to. Yes, please come by.
[20:27] Resounding enthusiastic yes. And so I went by, met him, we clicked. We're both talkers. So we just talked our faces off at each other for a couple hours. And that's when we knew. And.
[20:46] And so the, the great thing was that he said, Okay, I'm not gonna have time for you until the spring. And this was in really early fall. So I was looking at having the entire winter to make work, which I time was what you know, time that I felt I needed because I had not really been making drawings. And at the same time, it was a weight like a giant boulder that I felt like I was dragging from September until May 20. I imagine that there is a sweet spot where it's not too long, but it's not too short. I also know that some artists have shows of work that they've already made. So it's not this, feeling of waiting while also creating. That's like a special kind of hell. But the work that I made for the show was all original. It was for this gallery, it was for this community. It was completely related to the last year of living on the Central Coast and my subsequent reflections.
Beautiful. And tell us a little bit about how you picked the title of the show and the theme and sort of the vision for how it all fit together. Yeah, so originally I was just gonna focus on.
[22:14] Landscapes, which is something I really enjoy.
You know, I really loved drawing the land and sort of adding my own imaginative abstractions to it.
But then I was on a hike in Arizona with my partner and started joking about writing young adult fiction at some point in my life.
[22:42] And having it be a sort of like very traditional title, kind of like, you know, the, a prairie called home or like, what are the Laura Ingalls Wilder books?
Little House on the Prairie. Yeah, that, Little House on the Prairie.
And so I was sort of thinking of like that energy and yet inside the book, it's like full frontal snogging And, you know, A Princess Diaries meets 2023.
I'm like, you're gonna write that at some point. That's what I wanna read.
I wanna read like Princess Diaries meets Little House on the Prairie meets 2023.
Right. The unknown of that.
[23:30] Yeah, so we're walking and we're talking about this and I was like, and it's gonna be called The Rolling Hills of Jenny West.
And Jenny West is a name that my mother and brother gave to me when I was a baby.
I mean, I don't really remember them ever calling it, you know, me that name, except maybe when I was very small, like four or five briefly, but I do remember them telling me that they used to joke that I was adopted and that I was Jenny West, just this like random baby.
And I don't know if she was a character.
My mother says that it's after my grandmother, whose name is Giovanna, which is the name that we share, then turned into Jenny moving from Italy to the United States.
So moving from east to west, so it's Jenny West. There's really some folklore around this name and how it started being attributed to me, but Jenny West has always been an alter ego of mine.
A secret alter ego. And when my partner and I got home from Arizona and I started making the drawings, I kind of forgot about the young adult fiction thing and I was like, I'm not there yet.
That's for my forties.
It's like straight up, that's for my forties. And so right now I have to make these drawings.
So I started drawing these hills that I'm surrounded by.
[25:00] And then I started thinking about home and living around all of this seemingly vacant, beautiful agrarian land.
The Central Coast is just the most incredibly beautiful place I've ever been in this country.
And I can't believe I live there now.
Rolling endless hills and valleys. And then there's the ocean.
And...
[25:26] For me, it's really brought up like place and time and will I ever have a home or a home like this or what is home and what is land and how do you get it and who are the people that own that land and this land and the competitiveness of even renting on land like this.
So these were some of the questions coming up as I was just spending a lot of time looking at the world around me, and then I just imagined a love story as I am one to do. And the two sort of merged, and that's where the narrative arc of these drawings sort of came from.
[26:23] Bye.
When you have work for sale in this way, these original drawings, how do you emotionally prepare yourself for none of them selling, half of them selling, all of them selling?
How do you price your work? I think a huge question of artists is like, how the hell do we choose how much something costs?
And so, I'd love to hear about your process of like, you know, you just told us this beautiful story of like how you came to the work and then you have to decide how much it costs.
It's like, yeah, talk to us about pricing, expectation around selling that side of art making.
Yeah, this is a great thing to talk about because the experience of pricing this work was unlike any I had ever had before.
The show before this, the owner of the gallery, I came to him with my prices and he, knowing his audience, basically doubled everything.
[27:33] Wow. It was incredible because he set the bar for my future, in a sense.
He was like, mm-hmm, okay, so we're gonna present you like this now.
Yeah.
And I was like, you're crazy. Nobody's gonna buy a drawing for $1,000.
Are you nuts? No one's gonna buy this one for $2,000. I mean, these were prices that, I was selling things for like $150.
Right, right. And he was just like, mm-hmm, what's gonna happen now?
So here we are in this new part of your life.
[28:08] Set it and forget it was kind of the, like, let's just see. So he did that, and all the work sold, at the prices that Miles had set.
So that was incredibly expensive for me because I realized that there actually are people in the world with money who wanna buy art.
Wow. Wow. Wow. You all hear that? Say it, wanna say it one more time?
There are people in the world with money who want to buy art.
Whoo shocking shocking shocking something that I forget is that not everyone else is an artist in the same way that I can get myopic about my experience and feelings like at the risk of sounding like a total narcissist or totally self-obsessed person I also forget that other, other people live completely different lives with different paychecks and nine to five routines and ways of relating to money or finding it or having it.
[29:24] I forget that my experience with money is not ubiquitous. And so this is something that I have to continually return to as I'm making and pricing work.
I am not making work for Anna Fusco. I mean, in my heart I am, but I'm not making 24 drawings to hang in my own house.
[29:48] I'm making them for other people. So this show was different in the pricing because Charlie and I priced the work together and it took three days, which was a lot of time.
It was unexpected.
It was a barrage of texting back and forth, sometimes late at night, within this three-day period of, I think we're good, I think we should stick to the prices, yes, let's do it, let's set the bar high, I'm not messing around anymore.
And then a half an hour later being like, please do not release that price list.
That price list is insane. That's the price list of a crazy person.
We need to lower those prices.
Who do I think I am?
And so the first day of pricing, I walked into the gallery, I looked at all of my art on the walls, lovingly custom framed by my partner. And I mean, the frames alone, I'm like $3,000 for something that's nine by nine. Because I love my partner and I love the work he did and the wood and everything. And I know how much labor it took for me to then put the work in the frames and mount them and everything, let alone the drawings. So I'm walking around the gallery and I'm.
[31:16] Yeah, that one, 2,000. And I'm just like rattling off prices. And Charlie is indulging me and he's like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And he's writing it all down. And we calculate at the end of it that it's like, if we sold everything, it would be a 50,000 or $40,000 show. And I was like, great, see you later. And then in the coming days, I went to bed and right before going to bed, I looked at all the art and I lowered the prices. And then the next morning, I woke up and before coffee, did it again, lowered the prices. Had coffee, did it again, lowered the prices.
And each phase of that was a different page in my notebook, and it's really incredible to just flip through the pages of every single drawing title, handwritten, with a price.
And then the next page, it's like $100 less. And the next page, it's $100 less. And I think, I did that five or six times, all the while communicating with Charlie.
I went to the gallery one last time, we lowered the prices again. And that was not because I was selling myself short or undervaluing my work, but because I asked myself.
[32:41] What do I truly need this show to mean to me and give to me?
And how can I align that with other people who are meant to receive this work?
So that meant getting really real about not only the physical location of this gallery, which, While it is in an incredibly unaffordable town in California, the surrounding towns are not necessarily full of young folk with tons of disposable income.
And I wasn't sure that the people in the town with money would resonate with my work because I'm not 50 plus.
[33:42] Making oil paintings of the ocean.
So I priced the work closer to who I imagined the local community and say like friends in New York, friends in New York, friends of friends in L.A., like, you know, not close friends, because my close friends are also artists who are struggling, more or less, but.
People within an arm's or a couple tentacles of reach. That's what felt good to me.
[34:23] Yeah. I do want to circle back to the, not everyone is an artist moment of how we price things, because I really have to think that way about when I price an online class that I teach. And especially with my quilt class, which some of my classes might help people earn income.
So I don't feel as weird charging a certain price. And with quilt class, sometimes I, I used to have like guilt or fear around the price.
And then I realized the people who are taking it are often like literal lawyers and doctors who have plenty of money to, you know, pay that price.
Or I started noticing like the scrappiest queers who were like farmers, would ask their rich parents for quilt class for Christmas or for their birthday.
Like I am not in charge of how other people can access the money to buy the things that I offer.
And, you know, I feel like this is maybe where like your prints come into play as like, and I have ways.
[35:35] Like I charge that much so that I can offer payment plans, scholarships, it's like you charge that much And then you also have like prints and other ways to access your art that aren't the same as original drawings.
So, yeah, I just wanted to sort of...
[35:53] Put a little spotlight on the we are in charge of, How other people come up with the money to buy our work even though?
Yeah I think that my work occasionally extends beyond the work itself and part of my work of course is pricing it so that, It can be received by an audience and also support me to keep, surviving and making more work, but.
[36:21] I think my job is just the work of numbers and pricing, and somehow, of trying to steer clear of like, micromanaging what I assume the audience looks like, or can feasibly do.
Yes. And I like I think what you actually just really showed us was also this beautiful thoughtfulness of like, who are the people locally who are interacting with this work? And like, what is their income? Like, what is their interest? Like, because at the same time, like, yes, and a lot of people who take my classes are, you know, the niche audience is often like, struggling queer artists, you know, that's who's taking my classes, like artists on the outskirts, marginalized people.
And so I am always playing that puzzle of like, how do I charge For the people who aren't those identities or or or are those identities and have access to money, you know it's such a just dance of being in like deep consideration and, asking who I want in the room and.
[37:33] Not assuming people's financial abilities at the same time. Yeah, and that's reminding me to of like of we, You know, I had one art show and we set the prices at a certain place and then it's there's an assumption that, Now that I am a year and a half more established from that show the work has, Increased in value and price and so the next show will be maybe slightly, more expensive than the last one.
And that trajectory is sort of anticipated with emerging artists, right?
That's the goal. And then I made this, and then I made this, and then suddenly I'm selling an airbrush painting for $65,000.
[38:24] But I just feel like right now in my life, I have a more holistic, grounded approach wherein I'm not really interested in relating to my work that way because I'm learning about how important the context of the work itself being made and who's receiving it is to the way it's then valued. So.
[38:56] Right now I looked at my current finances, where I need them or want them to be, who the audience is, who the maybe external digital audience might be, how much money it cost to make the show, what Charlie kind of hopes to earn based on the rent of the gallery itself. These are all things that are so unique to this one show. My next show might have no overhead, might not require any framing, might be when I was paying less rent or came into a big lump sum of a grant.
Like, you know, I might be in a more flexible situation where I'm like, hey, I'm feeling generous.
Like this work, let's price it here.
Or it could be the opposite where I'm like, the overhead of the show was totally insane. I went nuts.
I am in over my head.
I did not get the grant. And yeah, I'm really gonna ask a lot from myself and the audience right now.
This is where I'm at. Thank you for sharing all of that so honestly with us. Yeah.
[40:17] I would love to move towards speaking of the newsletter. Yes. unsupervised with Anna. So, tell us what the newsletter is about. What the hell do you write a newsletter about?
What the heck do I write about? Do any of my readers want to chime in? Just kidding. Just kidding. I actually feel called and usually I don't just sort of like brag is maybe the wrong word, but me and Anna are in the top 10 art and illustration sub stacks on the leaderboard.
And I think that that is really cool. And I think that that is, you know, I do like to tell the story that when I first saw your sub stack, it reminds me of like find other artists who intimidate you or make you jealous or nervous and become friends with them. Like, I remember being like, who is this other blonde, dirty hair looking person with hats and coats who takes film pictures and writes about feelings? That's like what I do. I'm scared, my friend.
[41:24] So we also have the same like some of the same tattoos. Oh, yes, absolutely. Of course we do. Yeah, we're I'm like seeing your tattoos for the first time.
Yeah.
So, anyways, I just wanted to share about my experience finding your sub stack, and I just, I, I'm a huge, huge fan of your writing. You make me a better writer.
So do you. Thank you for saying that you really do. I felt the other side of that, which is, I had read your sub stack for probably a year before starting mine, maybe six months, but a while before. And you were expansive for me. This is a person who does this and shows up and is making it part of their practice. I think I can do the same because I know that.
[42:14] I can articulate my experiences pretty well. But I knew that I would be or was already on your radar and I felt very self-conscious that you might feel infringed upon or like I was stepping on your toes or like, oh my God, another sub stack, you know, and I had to hold that and move confidently in the direction of my dreams anyway. So it was like, I'm so glad you did.
Right. And I'm glad I did too, because what I've learned is that there's just no two substacks and other things that are ever going to be alike. And so I had this fear that I would be copying Marley by having a substack and yet every week I continue to write the way I want to write. And I I continue to read your sub stack and they are nothing alike and they will really never be anything alike. And it's, it's so, it's such an incredible reminder. Like whoever you are afraid that you're copying, you're not going to copy them unless you literally copy them, which has happened. And that's another story. But you know, so my newsletter, I love it.
[43:39] Just love it so much. I just want to live in there. Mmm.
I write about myself. People say, what do you write about?
And the easiest thing is just to say, myself. How did you come up with three times a month?
Because I feel like that's something I try to encourage people is, you know, I write like anywhere between four and eight times a month.
And I think sometimes people see that and I tell people, you know, know, on the podcast or in my classes, like make a newsletter and they're like, Well, I can't write that much. And I'm always, like, No, you can write a newsletter once a month or twice a year, but like, that channel feels so important. And so why three times a month? And how has having a newsletter felt important to you, separate from the other channels of marketing you're sharing like social media.
I started with two times a month. That was my public announcement. Hi, hello, this is unsupervised, it's going to happen twice a month. And that was because I felt the weight of what a weekly practice, meaning four times a month, would mean.
[44:54] Having read your substack religiously and also Lisa's substack, which are two that occur Sunday and Monday, regardless of what happens pretty much.
And I didn't want to set myself up, I didn't want to bite off more than I could chew.
This is a new thing that I'm going to incorporate into my life.
I'm not going to go out blazing like, hello, I can write four essays of quality a month.
No, I don't know that, actually. But I know that I can write two things of substance because that gives me about a week to write and a week to edit. That sounds good.
So I was doing that, and everything was fine. And then I just naturally found myself Wanting to do one more, and that just pushing that edge of adding one and then you know publicly announcing it and.
[45:56] Uh holding myself Accountable to it my readers holding me accountable to it based on their paid subscriptions, Has felt like a challenge and a growing edge in the perfect way right now, you know, I don't suggest to everyone who takes either newsletter class or shapes of our offerings like my different classes I don't say to everyone make a profitable newsletter like I think there's a lot of value and just having a free email marketing newsletter but of course we both have newsletters that both market our work but are also offerings within themselves that generate income so I'm curious how, How do you decide what goes behind the paywall and what is free?
What's that experience been like, having the exchange of money for your writing and deciding?
[46:51] What goes in what container. I wish I could say that it was a formula like I always do q&a and that's for subscribers who pay or I only reveal my current recommendations to paid subscribers or something like that. But what I have found is that, for me, it is a much more intuitive, ad hoc way of determining because as I'm writing and when I finish a piece, I really just say to, myself, who is meant to read this? Who do I trust with this?
I think it's those two questions. Who is meant to read this? And also, who do I want to read this? And then who do I trust with this? My relationship to my readers feels very much like a container of mutual trust. I write incredibly personal things on there occasionally, and those without fail do go behind a paywall, because that's just the way it is.
[48:01] You want to read my journals? You want to see what it's like to have an insecure attachment style while being a full-time artist? Here you go. Here's the keys to my castle.
Subscribe to Monday Monday and unsupervised.
Yeah, exactly. Well, and I loved, it happened so seamlessly that you had sort of just started really writing about your relationship and love, and I made this declaration because I had spent years writing about my partnership and my, not my partnership, but my place sort of within my my partnership and made a really clear decision to stop writing about how I'm specifically in relationship to someone I'm dating.
And I remember this beautiful thing that people who were reading both of our newsletters sort of had this beautiful experience of reflecting back to us like, we love that Marlee won't be writing about this anymore, and we're so glad that Anna does." And it was just that other example of, like, when one of us puts something down, the other one can sort of pick it up for the people or something.
Yeah, like the floating idea completely. It was the same week that you said, I am hereby announcing that I'm no longer sharing my relationship.
[49:27] Which was such perfect timing for me because it was the same exact moment that I had publicly displayed my relationship like I have never before by doing a live Q&A with my partner, who does not have social media. So, I mean, I couldn't have made us more vulnerable. Everyone was like, is this really happening? Like, is she really doing this? Yes, I am.
And of course, there was a vulnerability hangover and reading your newsletter about not writing about this and not sharing this.
I did have a moment of like, oh crap, did I just make a grave error?
And no, but it's always good to have, to ask the hard questions, which are like, what is the motivation behind flaying myself publicly?
Well, and when we first opened this conversation, I love that you identified as a truth teller and then we're like, my truth, you know?
It's like, we tell our truths, not the truth, which I like. Yeah, I tell my truth.
There is no the truth.
[50:39] So another huge part of your practice is Lord Cowboy. Tell me about how it started.
So it was COVID, it was lockdown. I was living alone in Orange County, which I have no relationship to except for the fact that I at one time was involved with someone who's from there.
But at this point I was all by myself in a very sunny, beautiful apartment.
And I had been living in New York where I was going to school for the five years leading up to COVID.
And so, when it happened, I felt very far away from my people and very distraught and concerned and at once grateful that I was not there for the meat of that situation, but also really like wanting to be there, like, God, I just want to get in there and help.
And I worked in the service industry the whole time that I was going to school.
A few friends of mine started a mutual aid.
[51:59] Process of raising money for undocumented service workers who were no longer able to work and would not be receiving the wonderful New York benefits of unemployment. And I just was.
[52:21] Like, yes, sign me up. How can I raise money right now? And so I made a drawing on my iPad, which was based off of a sketch that came from my notebook. I digitized it, I decided it should be certain size, certain quality of paper, I was connected to a printer that I trusted already through the work of a friend and told Instagram. And at the time, me telling Instagram was telling like 2000 people. Hi, everyone, here is a drawing I've made. If you give me $40 for it, I will print it, send it to you. And all of the proceeds will go to this organization, the Service Workers Coalition of New York.
And I will receive the money through Venmo and take your address via DM and put it into a spreadsheet on Excel.
That was the, that was the, that was my system.
Yeah. And I think I sold something like 40 posters to friends and friends of friends, to all people I knew, but, you know, or knew through one degree of separation.
[53:39] And that felt so good to just raise $1,000 overnight, basically, from a drawing I made.
And it made me realize that I like giving back, I like making art, and there's an audience for it.
They always say all you need is 100 people, and I had more than that, but not that much more.
And that worked. I was like, cool, okay, I'm going to do it again.
So I did it again, and I did it again, and I did it again.
And then it just spiraled. People were DMing me, hey, do you have any more posters left?
Hey, you should just like have a website with these for sale for yourself.
Like it's cool that you're giving back, but do you have a shop too?
You know? And so that was in, I would say, April of 2020. And by October of 2020, six months later, I opened a Squarespace.
So it took about six months for me to get organized.
[54:50] You know that was such a beautiful story about lord cowboy and how sort of the online shop started, I think the question that so many people have is really like, How do you even get started as an artist specifically as like a self-employed artist and having it be?
Your job, so i'm curious What you might say to someone really wanting to dedicate their life to art, outside of money and You know, how do you make it a job?
Well, I would start by saying that it's going to look different for everybody, because we're, all coming from different places of privilege or lack thereof, and I would be doing a disservice, if I said that being a full-time artist for me is unrelated to a lot of my unearned privilege.
[55:57] So we can just sit and let that sink in. And maybe someone's listening to this and is like, wow that's a bummer because i want to be an artist and i don't come from a lot of privilege, I have always been an artist. I've always been making something and I've always made the time, to create something with my hands. So for years before going to school for art and finishing in New York, I was working as a barista at a general store in Putney, Vermont, making minimum wage. But in my free time, I was, apprenticing at a weaving school down the road. And in exchange for I think $100 and helping the owner.
[57:10] Of the weaving school out with a few things. I had access to yarn, looms, books, and her guidance.
And I just wove and wove and wove and wove. And even though textiles aren't part of my practice anymore, They might be one day, but I'm telling this story to illustrate the fact that wherever I've lived, whether it's been in New York or Vermont or Martha's Vineyard or San Francisco, I've always kind of found a way to make sure that I was always making something.
When I moved to Brooklyn after living in Vermont, I Google-searched textiles and found the Textile Arts Center in Gowanus and discovered that they have an intern program and applied and became an intern there.
So I think it's really important to just use Google to find the art centers or communities or people.
[58:27] In whatever area you are in and go towards them. Be around them because it will be inspiring to you and it will make you want to make time for your practice.
That's my theory. I'm speaking generally, I'm giving directives, but I find it much harder to imagine that I would have just maintained my practice while sitting alone in my house, waiting for it to come to me.
It's not gonna come to you, especially not at the beginning, all the time.
You're lucky if it does. So you have to go to it.
[59:13] And that is something that I, it requires the privilege of time, sure.
[59:20] But I paid my own rent, and I worked service industry jobs, and I still had two four-hour periods a week to intern for free at the Textile Arts Center, which was, at the time, the lifeline I had to a creative community in the city I lived in.
[59:41] Yeah, I think something that comes up for me is because I host so many digital spaces and so much of my job is like in the digital realm. Just yesterday, I was even thinking about, you know, the place that I live and being like, I want to be a little more tethered to the places here. And I think that has really become a theme in the interviews with my guests is like, look around you. That just reminded me Michigan State motto is if you seek a pleasant Peninsula look about you. Wow. I know. It's really good. It's really good. Um, and yeah, I love look about you just like, yeah, like look around, you know, like what is near you that, you know, we don't have to like invent every new thing ourselves. Like actually we'll have often already made something that maybe it's better for us to like be a part of or see how we can be of service in those spaces. Yeah and maybe look about you and put yourself in shoes that feel maybe a little.
[1:00:55] I don't know how to say this but when I was an intern at the Textile Arts Center I was like 26 years old and had very real expenses and did not feel as though I could afford to work for free, like organizing crayons for their after school program and like printing out signage for their craft bins. But I did it anyway because it meant that I could take classes there for free and meet weavers and meet artists who were established in the city that I lived in. And those are all things that expanded me into the artist I am today. Yeah, I think that's like you said, there's the, there is the privilege of time. And it's a dance of like, I feel this with redistributing my finances, I feel this with redistributing resources and time, is this like, there's both the privilege and there's like, the risk or the trust that like, the more I give, the more I receive, and whether that's spiritually, monetarily, energetically, and I just really, believe that to be true, so.
Yeah, I do too.
[1:02:22] Anna, is there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners of Common Shapes today?
You know, I listened to another podcast a few weeks ago with the author Seth Godin, whose books I really like and I highly recommend if you're thinking about making art and sharing it and making it part of your daily life and or income. He was a guest on a podcast and the host asked him something like, you know, what's your formula?
What's your daily routine? Walk me from the beginning of your day till the end with the intention of like, revealing to an audience. This is what Seth Godin does. And so if you listen and take notes, and maybe do the same thing, you might be as successful as Seth Godin. And in response to her question, he just kind of laughed and was like, I'm not telling you any of this. I'm not telling you my routine. I'm not telling you anything I do. Not because it's something he wants to be cagey about, or withhold, but because he acknowledged that it is irrelevant information for the people listening to the podcast.
[1:03:41] Because what works for him has nothing to do with what will work for another person. So here we are recording a podcast about my trajectory and how I got started and what I think has helped me and what maybe people can do.
But I also wanna hold a little space for the fact that.
[1:04:07] Whoever is listening to this knows what's calling them and what's going to work for them.
And if they don't know it yet, the best thing to do is to start listening to yourself.
Maybe you make a list. Project Miracle. Maybe you start by making lists of your honest to God truths every single day. Or just sitting still. But your answers to your practice and it being fruitful are already inside of you.
And Seth Godin finished by saying, the only thing that sets me apart from a person who has yet to begin or quote unquote become successful is that he's learned to work with the inevitable resistance, that we'll always encounter.
And I just thought, yes, Seth Godin, that is the truth.
[1:05:08] So we're all gonna have resistance. It's a rollercoaster.
All you should focus on, I'm talking to myself, I'm talking to Marlee, I'm talking to a listener, is that how can there be less resistance?
How can I work with my resistance? How can I dance with my resistance?
And that just comes from knowing yourself, taking time to get to know yourself.
Yeah, gosh, it's like the thing that what I think of is.
It is not the resistance itself that causes my suffering, it is my resistance to the resistance that causes suffering.
Yes, yes.
I feel the resistance and I'm like, time to take a break, time to relax, time to do something else.
I have much more ease than when I fight against it. And when I'm speaking for myself, when I'm in ease, around my practice and my relationships, they just somehow, call it the universe, it somehow just kind of works better.
Kind of just works better, and that is a miracle.
Yeah, because I think we subconsciously respond to one another better when we recognize ease and play.
[1:06:36] And generosity of spirit and attitude in one another. And so I think to myself often, yeah, do people wanna support an artist who's like fighting tooth and nail to get the message out and so stressed and pulling my hair out and being so hard on myself but I'll buy this poster though.
Or, do they want to support someone who's like, hello world, it is a crazy hellscape out here sometimes, but you know what?
Sun's shining even if you can't see it, so I made a drawing.
And tomorrow I'm gonna not make a drawing because my body says stop.
[1:07:19] Maybe you want it. Maybe you don't It's there I'll be okay and work at the movie theater, If nobody buys it then i'll start my flower farm, which, You know, I put my seeds in the ground, you know I just that's the thing about as i'm trying to like do this brand brand new thing, and of course gardening is like the best metaphor for everything, but it's like, I've been so Obsessed with like trying to figure out how to do it and ahead of myself where it's literally as simple as like you put the dirt in the box, Then you put the seed in the dirt Then you water the dirt then you wait to see if the seed pops up and right now I'm waiting for the seed to pop up and it's like every morning I wake up and I like look in the box and I'm like seed. Have you popped up yet? And it's like not yet, Not yet. Not yet.
Not yet. Planting and gardening, it's such an incredible metaphor for everything, but also for believing in oneself and patience because it's like you plant the seed and you water it and it's underground and nothing's showing, but you have faith.
You know something's going to happen.
You're like, yeah, it's there. It just takes time.
[1:08:43] So you live day to day with this belief in your seed, even though you can't see it.
And I think that's really important to carry with us.
So you might not see your audience yet, you might not see money flowing to you yet, but, can you think of it like a seed that is just sort of germinating inside of you and believe that it's going to come for you, even if it hasn't sprouted yet. I know it's cheesy. I'm doing the metaphor thing. I know, it is, but it's so... I literally bent down yesterday to the seeds.
I put the flower seeds and said, are you guys in there still? And it's like, yeah, we are. They're in there. Yeah. So just say that to yourself. Are you in there still? Little creative version of me.
Anna, thank you so much for coming on to Common Shapes. It was an absolute blessing.
This was the best day of my day.
Goodbye, listeners. Bye.
I'd love to thank everyone who's made this podcast possible. Our music is by Saltbreaker, our graphics are by Luke Haza Brampfmann Verissimo, and this podcast is edited by Softer Sounds Studio. Thank you for being a listener of Common Shapes.
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